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 Post subject: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:00 pm 
My MJ has a knock while driving, and I thought it was probably a collapsed lifter, but I pulled my valve cover, and only one valve is getting oilflow through the pushrod. Any Ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:41 pm 
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try salsa on your pizza

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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:47 pm 
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How many miles on the motor? Does it change as the motor warms up?

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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:55 pm 
I say you buy the head off the 89, then I can put some money on a D44


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:14 pm 
I did a little research, and I think it's an easy fix. When she was wrecked, the axle got hit hard enough that the uca mount put a dent in the oilpan. When it hit the pan, it jarred the pickup tube, and broke the seal. Now, she's sucking air, instead of oil. The service manual says when installing a new one, to use RTV to seal it. I am going to pull my pan, and re seal the pickup tube. I'm glad I was smart enough to use a lubelocker on the pan when I did the rear main!


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:16 pm 
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philbert001 wrote:
I did a little research, and I think it's an easy fix. When she was wrecked, the axle got hit hard enough that the uca mount put a dent in the oilpan. When it hit the pan, it jarred the pickup tube, and broke the seal. meow, she's sucking air, instead of oil. The service manual says when installing a new one, to use RTV to seal it. I am going to pull my pan, and re seal the pickup tube. I'm glad I was smart enough to use a lubelocker on the pan when I did the rear main!


let me know if the salsa works out for you

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Still just a kid that likes to play in the mud. My go cart is just a little bigger.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1991 cherokee, 3" bds lift (hers)
1987 comanche 4bangin 4x4 (stock for now)
2007 powerwheels jeep unlimited


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:52 pm 
OK, not an easy fix! I re-sealed the pickup tube, no help. I brought a pressure gauge home from work, and I have 40 lbs at idle. where should I go next? I don't wanna pull the head if I don't need to, and I can't afford to throw parts at it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:57 pm 
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philbert001 wrote:
OK, not an easy fix! I re-sealed the pickup tube, no help. I brought a pressure gauge home from work, and I have 40 lbs at idle. where should I go next? I don't wanna pull the head if I don't need to, and I can't afford to throw parts at it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


well the best i can say is. i have a great runninf 4.0 for sale :)

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Still just a kid that likes to play in the mud. My go cart is just a little bigger.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1991 cherokee, 3" bds lift (hers)
1987 comanche 4bangin 4x4 (stock for now)
2007 powerwheels jeep unlimited


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:33 pm 
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spackled
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philbert001 wrote:
OK, not an easy fix! I re-sealed the pickup tube, no help. I brought a pressure gauge home from work, and I have 40 lbs at idle. where should I go next? I don't wanna pull the head if I don't need to, and I can't afford to throw parts at it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


Back to the question about the mileage on the motor...
If there is enough wear in the bearings on the mains and rods, your 40 lbs. of pressure could all be going to the oil galleries for these bearings and pushing the oil out thru the "path of least resistance" around the bearings. The oil galery that feeds the the cam and lifters is higher up in the block and if most of your oil volume is lost to the bearings, there is not enough left to fill the lifters. That' just a theory, but the only way to confirm it would be to tear it down. A possible, easy fix for about $60 (?) would be to put in a high volume pump.

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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:38 pm 
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40PSI at idle is great oil pressure.

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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:57 pm 
I was told that it got a new long-block at 80,000. It now has 165,000. I put a rear main seal in her already, and the rear main bearing looks to be in good shape. I didn't mic it or anything, but the surface was clean, un-scarred, no nicks, or chips,etc. If the oil flows from front to rear, (I think?), then the rear would be the most likely to fail, so I'm assuming the rest are decent. This truck was 1 owner before me, and hasn't been beat on/wheeled. (I know the PO.) It supposedly always got it's oil changed, and always got it's needed repairs. It sat for 3 years total between waiting for me to buy it, and the 2 years it took me to get it put together enough to drive.


And Bryan, I don't think I'll be swapping in another motor. If it's easily/affordably repairable, great! I can drive her all year! If not, then I'll pull the motor, and maybe get my 302 swap in earlier than expected! That, and I've never built a motor from the ground up, and building a hot straight 6 would be a fun project for me, and the donor motor is free, so I won't be as scared of blowing it up!

I hope there is enough info there that somebody can help! Thanks guys!


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:03 pm 
kennedy wrote:
40PSI at idle is great oil pressure.

That's what I thought! I'm just wondering if I have a blockage somewhere, and where it most likely is/what all I have to tear down to get to it. I've got 40psi at idle, and she jumps to 70psi just from cracking the throttle.


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:09 pm 
AMXtogo wrote:
How many miles on the motor? Does it change as the motor warms up?

as far as I've been told, 85k on motor. The tick becomes more pronounced as she warms up. it sounds like 1 tick per rev. she seems to run fairly well, but I want to fix the oilflow problem/tick while I still can save the motor, so I haven't driven her since I discovered the problem. I've driven her maybe 40 miles since I got her together. I hope she's not gone! :acclaim:


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:50 pm 
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How long has it been since the oil was changed? What kind of oil are you running? What kind of filter?

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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:34 pm 
Watchamaklit wrote:
How long has it been since the oil was changed? What kind of oil are you running? What kind of filter?

I changed the oil when I did the rear main. a month ago. 5w30, quaker state high mileage. and a napa pro filter


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:47 pm 
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philbert001 wrote:
I was told that it got a new long-block at 80,000. It meow has 165,000. I put a rear main seal in her already, and the rear main bearing looks to be in good shape. I didn't mic it or anything, but the surface was clean, un-scarred, no nicks, or chips,etc. If the oil flows from front to rear, (I think?), then the rear would be the most likely to fail, so I'm assuming the rest are decent. This truck was 1 owner before me, and hasn't been beat on/wheeled. (I know the PO.) It supposedly always got it's oil changed, and always got it's needed repairs. It sat for 3 years total between waiting for me to buy it, and the 2 years it took me to get it put together enough to drive.


And Bryan, I don't think I'll be swapping in another motor. If it's easily/affordably repairable, great! I can drive her all year! If not, then I'll pull the motor, and maybe get my 302 swap in earlier than expected! That, and I've never built a motor from the ground up, and building a hot straight 6 would be a fun project for me, and the donor motor is free, so I won't be as scared of blowing it up!

I hope there is enough info there that somebody can help! Thanks guys!


You're right, it doesn't sound like the main and rod bearings should be an issue. When you had the valve cover off, did you run the engine any faster then idle? If so, did that give you any more flow from the push rods? Do you have a factory shop manual that would show the layout of the oil passages?
What I'm thinking is; pull the valve cover, timing cover and chain, (you wanted to change the front main seal anyway, right?) and distributer. Find the plug for the oil passage that feeds the cam shaft. Open it up and run a brush or wire thru to see if it has any blockage. Make an oil pump drive shaft to turn the pump thru the distributer hole using a drill. Run the pump and see if you have flow to the cam/head passage.

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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:01 pm 
AMXtogo wrote:
philbert001 wrote:
I was told that it got a new long-block at 80,000. It meow has 165,000. I put a rear main seal in her already, and the rear main bearing looks to be in good shape. I didn't mic it or anything, but the surface was clean, un-scarred, no nicks, or chips,etc. If the oil flows from front to rear, (I think?), then the rear would be the most likely to fail, so I'm assuming the rest are decent. This truck was 1 owner before me, and hasn't been beat on/wheeled. (I know the PO.) It supposedly always got it's oil changed, and always got it's needed repairs. It sat for 3 years total between waiting for me to buy it, and the 2 years it took me to get it put together enough to drive.


And Bryan, I don't think I'll be swapping in another motor. If it's easily/affordably repairable, great! I can drive her all year! If not, then I'll pull the motor, and maybe get my 302 swap in earlier than expected! That, and I've never built a motor from the ground up, and building a hot straight 6 would be a fun project for me, and the donor motor is free, so I won't be as scared of blowing it up!

I hope there is enough info there that somebody can help! Thanks guys!


You're right, it doesn't sound like the main and rod bearings should be an issue. When you had the valve cover off, did you run the engine any faster then idle? If so, did that give you any more flow from the push rods? Do you have a factory shop manual that would show the layout of the oil passages?
What I'm thinking is; pull the valve cover, timing cover and chain, (you wanted to change the front main seal anyway, right?) and distributer. Find the plug for the oil passage that feeds the cam shaft. Open it up and run a brush or wire thru to see if it has any blockage. Make an oil pump drive shaft to turn the pump thru the distributer hole using a drill. Run the pump and see if you have flow to the cam/head passage.


That's kinda what I'm thinking. I have run it over idle, and the one valve that's getting oil doesn't seem to get more oil at a higher rpm, just splashes it around more. I have a Grand Cherokee manual, (Hanes), And it aint got shit for diagrams! I've been trying to find a lubrication diagram online, but either can't find one, or, I suck at google!


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:09 pm 
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Another thought on this, and it'd be easy to check. Loosen the rocker arms and pull out a couple of the push rods that aren't getting oil and see if the oil passage thru the rods are plugged.

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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:47 pm 
AMXtogo wrote:
Another thought on this, and it'd be easy to check. Loosen the rocker arms and pull out a couple of the push rods that aren't getting oil and see if the oil passage thru the rods are plugged.

I've already checked that, and they are clear.

Today, I pulled the distributor, and ran the oil pump with a drill. I had one set of rockers off when I did it, and I noticed that The lifters pushed the pushrods up a little. I pulled out the pushrods, and ran the pump while looking down into the lifter holes, and I could see oil flowing out of the lifters, so I put it all back together, and fired it up, and at about 2000 rpm, the oil does seem to be making it to the top end. (Along with a bunch of spatter) I think I am going to pick up some marvel mystery oil, or seafoam, or one of those deals, drive it for a while, and hopefully break up whatever clot is restricting oilflow.

Is this a bad Idea? Should I try a thinner viscosity oil? Will thinner oil get up there easier? at least until I get good oilflow back? I've been running 5w30, what's thinner?

And thanks again for the loaner manual Kelly! I appreciate it!


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:46 pm 
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I wouldn't go any thinner with the oil. 5w30 is already pretty thin.
I have used Motor Flush to clean out high mileage blocks. It does free up all kinds of gunk. The down side is that if you have a lot of build up and use Motor Flush, everything that was stuck up in the engine will drop into the oil pan and may not drain out when you change the oil after the flush (as directed in the instructions). I ended up rebuilding a 2.5 because I didnt get all the gunk out of the pan after I flushed it and then plugged the oil pump. To be safe, I'd pull the pan after a flush, just to be sure. Follow the directions on the can. It's strong stuff. Definitely don't run the engine longer than the 5 min. given in the directions, or at high RPM.

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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:02 pm 
AMXtogo wrote:
I wouldn't go any thinner with the oil. 5w30 is already pretty thin.
I have used Motor Flush to clean out high mileage blocks. It does free up all kinds of gunk. The down side is that if you have a lot of build up and use Motor Flush, everything that was stuck up in the engine will drop into the oil pan and may not drain out when you change the oil after the flush (as directed in the instructions). I ended up rebuilding a 2.5 because I didnt get all the gunk out of the pan after I flushed it and then plugged the oil pump. To be safe, I'd pull the pan after a flush, just to be sure. Follow the directions on the can. It's strong stuff. Definitely don't run the engine longer than the 5 min. given in the directions, or at high RPM.

Cool! Thanks for the help Kelly, I appreciate it greatly, and owe you one!


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:31 pm 
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Motor flush is kerosene. I was about to recommend kerosene, but you get instructions with motor flush. Go that way.

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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:33 pm 
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Have you made any progress on this Phil?

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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:48 pm 
AMXtogo wrote:
Have you made any progress on this Phil?

Nope! I did a flush, and still no flow! :crybaby2:

To recap, the lifters are flowing oil, but it isn't making it to the top of the pushrods. I've got 35 lbs of oil pressure at idle, and close to 70 just over idle. I have pulled and cleaned 6 pushrods/rockers, and there was no noticeable sludge built up in them.

I am pulling my hair out on this thing! :doh: If anybody knows more than me, and wants to come drink beer and turn wrenches with me, I'd appreciate the help! Sometimes all it takes is a second brain to figure these things out. I don't wanna tear down this motor if I don't have to. I have a pretty good set of tools/airtools, so you won't be coming to an unprepared shop.

Thanks again for all the help Kelly!


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:42 pm 
Well, I'm pissed, and have no more Ideas but to pull the head, clean or replace the lifters, Check the cam bearings, and go from there. :doh:


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:58 pm 
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it may be a stupid idea but have you tried putting any of that lucas oil additive in it? i know that stuff does wonders for other problems :?

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1991 cherokee, 3" bds lift (hers)
1987 comanche 4bangin 4x4 (stock for now)
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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:02 am 
Bryan wrote:
it may be a stupid idea but have you tried putting any of that lucas oil additive in it? i know that stuff does wonders for other problems :?

You need to have oil flow for that stuff to help at all. I don't.


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:41 am 
Damn phil that really sucks.I've been keeping an eye on this thread hopeing you would get it figured out.Sorry I got nothin on this issue,you know alot more than I do,good luck bro hope you get soon. :2up:


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:03 pm 
I know this might be a long shot but could the head gasket be blocking something, flipping it around, umop apisdn, something . I have bad luck like that, thats something I would check because my luck is something simple . You need to wear the Mullet when doing this!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:51 pm 
xjryder wrote:
I know this might be a long shot but could the head gasket be blocking something, flipping it around, umop apisdn, something . I have bad luck like that, thats something I would check because my luck is something simple . You need to wear the Mullet when doing this!!!!!!

lmao If it's umop apisdn, it's been like that for 80,000 miles! I don't know. Like I said, If I can't fix it easily, I'll pull it, and rebuild it with hotrod parts, and throw it in my XJ. Then, I'll work on getting the 302 in there!


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:55 pm 
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philbert001 wrote:
Well, I'm pissed, and have no more Ideas but to pull the head, clean or replace the lifters, Check the cam bearings, and go from there. :doh:

(re-typing this a second time, 1st one got lost in cyber space)
You said you're runnig 5W30 oil, correct? I believe the owners manual recomends 10W30, but for the sake of this test, try some 10W40. Drain the oil pan, (no need to change the filter) replace the oil with 10W40 and see how that affects the volume of oil getting to your rocker arms. If your problem is due to a flow restriction, thicker oil should make the problem worse. If the problem is due oil flowing out too fast around the bearings, thicker oil will make it better. Think of it this way, if you take 2 buckets, drill a row of evenly spaced holes up the side of each bucket, and then pump an equal, steady volume of 2 different weights of oil into each bucket, the bucket with the thicker oil will be fuller. (your rocker arms are the top holes in the bucket)

(where's Bill Nye when you need him?)

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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:05 pm 
AMXtogo wrote:
philbert001 wrote:
Well, I'm pissed, and have no more Ideas but to pull the head, clean or replace the lifters, Check the cam bearings, and go from there. :doh:

(re-typing this a second time, 1st one got lost in cyber space)
You said you're runnig 5W30 oil, correct? I believe the owners manual recomends 10W30, but for the sake of this test, try some 10W40. Drain the oil pan, (no need to change the filter) replace the oil with 10W40 and see how that affects the volume of oil getting to your rocker arms. If your problem is due to a flow restriction, thicker oil should make the problem worse. If the problem is due oil flowing out too fast around the bearings, thicker oil will make it better. Think of it this way, if you take 2 buckets, drill a row of evenly spaced holes up the side of each bucket, and then pump an equal, steady volume of 2 different weights of oil into each bucket, the bucket with the thicker oil will be fuller. (your rocker arms are the top holes in the bucket)

(where's Bill Nye when you need him?)

I guess I've been looking at it as a restriction the whole time because the crank bearings seem ok, but if they are very worn, just cleanly worn, or the cam bearings are worn, you could be right! And 6 quarts of oil, (wasted or not), are worth the money to potentially not have to pull the head! I have all the pushrods/rockers out, but I'll just clean them while they're out, and reinstall! I'll let ya know!


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:57 pm 
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And the bearings may not even be excessively worn. The bearings have a minimum and maximum allowable clearance and depending on how accurately the rebuilder followed these, your bearing clearance may be at the upper limit, or even slightly over spec. If that is the case, there is room for oil to flow more freely around the bearing, requiring a larger volume of oil.

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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:34 pm 
So since I have 1 rocker getting oil, That could just be the 1 bearing with the tightest tolerance?

I'm a body and paint guy. I'm still learning on the driveline stuff, but greatly appreciate anyone who makes me think, and helps me learn! Thanks again Kelly! I'll let ya know!

And your Sig needs updated! I saw way more than a CJ and an XJ at your house! :?


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:17 pm 
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philbert001 wrote:
And your Sig needs updated! I saw way more than a CJ and an XJ at your house! :?


These 2 are the only ones that were 4wd. There wasn't enough room to list all of the 2wds. :) (13, if I counted right, I just thinned the herd by 3)

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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:38 pm 
AMXtogo wrote:
philbert001 wrote:
And your Sig needs updated! I saw way more than a CJ and an XJ at your house! :?


These 2 are the only ones that were 4wd. There wasn't enough room to list all of the 2wds. :) (13, if I counted right, I just thinned the herd by 3)

We can fix that! I have an extra NP242 layin around!


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 3:10 pm 
you need to come check out the 97 dash its in phil, bring some supplies, seem sealer, sand paper, primer primer gun. I will be waiting for your sweet ass LOL, JK


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 Post subject: Re: restricted oilflow to head.
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:45 pm 
AMXtogo wrote:
philbert001 wrote:
Well, I'm pissed, and have no more Ideas but to pull the head, clean or replace the lifters, Check the cam bearings, and go from there. :doh:

(re-typing this a second time, 1st one got lost in cyber space)
You said you're runnig 5W30 oil, correct? I believe the owners manual recomends 10W30, but for the sake of this test, try some 10W40. Drain the oil pan, (no need to change the filter) replace the oil with 10W40 and see how that affects the volume of oil getting to your rocker arms. If your problem is due to a flow restriction, thicker oil should make the problem worse. If the problem is due oil flowing out too fast around the bearings, thicker oil will make it better. Think of it this way, if you take 2 buckets, drill a row of evenly spaced holes up the side of each bucket, and then pump an equal, steady volume of 2 different weights of oil into each bucket, the bucket with the thicker oil will be fuller. (your rocker arms are the top holes in the bucket)

(where's Bill Nye when you need him?)

No dice here! :doh: I need to get this fixed, so I can get her sold. Same 1 rocker getting oil. I had the head almost ready to come out, and put it back together to try this, because it made sense, but no luck! :crybaby2: I hate this fucking truck!


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